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Utah Vouchers: Oreo cookie ad exposed?
Can anyone address whether this video is accurate or not?
Connor was first.
Sure, it’s more accurate than the original oreo ad. But this one (and most of them) leave out one crucial point: who does the money belong to?
The person in this video, and those who believe likewise, feel that the taxpayer’s money belongs to the school and district, to distribute as they see fit, and manage all the programs and classes that they provide for the other students.
The issue here is one of fiscal morality: who owns the money funding these programs? Should parents who wish to educate their children in a private school be required to fund the programs and administration for their neighbor’s children?
This ad does accurately reflect the monetary dissemination in public schools: $7,000 is not applied directly to each individual student. Instead, that money is divvied up among all those involved in the process.
But what of it?
Pro-voucher ads have it right when they state that competition should be introduced into schooling, allowing a person’s money to be spent according to whoever they feel can best provide the services they desire.
If money has to be taken from gym teachers, the library, and the computer lab, so what? Obviously, if a significant number of students leave the school, less resources will be required to administer to the leftover students, and thus programs can be downsized, teachers can be let go, and less classes offered. Basic supply and demand.
But unions like their job security. They don’t want anybody “let go†simply because the services they provide don’t meet up to the expectations of the customer (parents). And so, you see teachers vigorously opposing vouchers, simply because it would mean downsizing, restructuring, and fiscal hardship. They like being funded by every taxpayer in the city. Who wouldn’t?
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about 5 years ago
Sure, it’s more accurate than the original oreo ad. But this one (and most of them) leave out one crucial point: who does the money belong to?
The person in this video, and those who believe likewise, feel that the taxpayer’s money belongs to the school and district, to distribute as they see fit, and manage all the programs and classes that they provide for the other students.
The issue here is one of fiscal morality: who owns the money funding these programs? Should parents who wish to educate their children in a private school be required to fund the programs and administration for their neighbor’s children?
This ad does accurately reflect the monetary dissemination in public schools: $7,000 is not applied directly to each individual student. Instead, that money is divvied up among all those involved in the process.
But what of it?
Pro-voucher ads have it right when they state that competition should be introduced into schooling, allowing a person’s money to be spent according to whoever they feel can best provide the services they desire.
If money has to be taken from gym teachers, the library, and the computer lab, so what? Obviously, if a significant number of students leave the school, less resources will be required to administer to the leftover students, and thus programs can be downsized, teachers can be let go, and less classes offered. Basic supply and demand.
But unions like their job security. They don’t want anybody “let go” simply because the services they provide don’t meet up to the expectations of the customer (parents). And so, you see teachers vigorously opposing vouchers, simply because it would mean downsizing, restructuring, and fiscal hardship. They like being funded by every taxpayer in the city. Who wouldn’t?
about 5 years ago
Guess you can’t argue with Connor, public school teachers are all out for themselves and who cares about downsizing, let them pick up the pieces amiright? Proponents of the voucher try to make this seem so simple, I mean it is “Basic supply and demand”. That comment alone just makes me laugh. There is so much more to this when you look at the spectrum of cities, suburbs and small towns that to make such a comment is absurd. Having a public school teacher sister (German and English), I can just flat out say comments like this drive people away from supporting the vouchers.
about 5 years ago
Proponents of the voucher try to make this seem so simple, I mean it is “Basic supply and demandâ€. That comment alone just makes me laugh.
Then please rebut it with an argument, not a vague statement that there is “so much more” to it.
I can just flat out say comments like this drive people away from supporting the vouchers.
Some people, perhaps. Others agree. Guess it all depends on your paradigm, and what you choose to believe. I’m not expecting to convince any teachers or public school sympathizers, because they demand the taxpayers’ money to fund their salary and programs regardless of the quality of their output.
about 5 years ago
“I’m not expecting to convince any teachers or public school sympathizers”. Hmmm, that is cutting out a large swath of people. You do know a lot of these people are on the fence right? Just because they like public schools doesn’t mean they hate private schools. We already know where you stand.
THEY don’t “demand” the taxpayers’ money. You do know that public schools are mandated in the Utah constitution right? Not only to have them but to make sure they are good and well funded. You seem to know little to nothing of the amount of work teachers are required to put in at a public school. My sister is getting her master’s degree in German for school while still working, and has gone to Austria twice for training and schooling. I realize this isn’t everyone, but a vast number of teachers are not demanding money regardless of the quality. In fact, the school systems have a huge pressure on them right now to have master degree level or higher teachers and are getting rid of those that don’t meet certain criteria. Additionally, in Salt Lake county students are pretty flexible in which public school they can attend, so there is competition. My cousins for example had each of the three kids go to different high schools.
about 5 years ago
THEY don’t “demand†the taxpayers’ money
Sure they do. How else do their salaries get paid? This very ad shows that the money is necessary to fund the programs for all the students. Therefore, public schools claim as necessary the right to taxpayer’s money to fund their operations.
You seem to know little to nothing of the amount of work teachers are required to put in at a public school.
I’m well aware of the long hours teachers put in for their job. You can thank the Feds for that – the No Child Left Behind Act is a burden all teachers now pay for, unnecessarily increasing their workload to satisfy the demands of a few bureaucrats.
In fact, the school systems have a huge pressure on them right now to have master degree level or higher teachers and are getting rid of those that don’t meet certain criteria.
That’s great. But a large part of the problem is not the personal qualification of the instructor, but the curriculum they are mandated to follow.
Additionally, in Salt Lake county students are pretty flexible in which public school they can attend, so there is competition.
What’s the point in going to a different public school if it’s the same system, with a highly similar curriculum? That’s like saying you can drink soda, but you have to choose between Sprite and 7-UP. They’re basically the same. Where’s the variety?
about 5 years ago
I was with you until you said Sprite and 7-UP are basically the same….7-UP is wayyyy better.
Anyway, your basic arguments are always against public schools, and that is fine as an opinion. However, this discussion is about trying to find arguments FOR this voucher legislation. Not vouchers or private schools in general. Public schools are in the Utah constitution, go read it in it’s entirety. If it were not there my sister would teach at a private school I am sure, she has no extreme loyalty to public schools. And that was my point, the public school teachers aren’t demanding anything, the constitution of Utah is. I guess I didn’t communicate my point well enough there.
You also seem to think they have strict guidelines as to the curriculum they follow but that is not really true. My sister has almost complete freedom on how she teaches German, and the other language teachers follow an entirely different method. I agree certain subjects like Math and English are considerably more restricted, but overall I found teaching in different schools drastically different both in methodology and style.
If you look back on my comments, I have said nothing negative about private schools, though you have continuously bashed on public schools. Private schools are great. It allows parents and students in one setting to find something they enjoy or find better suited for their needs. I’m all for that. This issue is about one specific piece of legislation though. Until you get rid of that part of Utah’s constitution you can’t simply say to heck with the public schools. It is unlawful.
about 5 years ago
Regarding the constitutionality of vouchers, I suggest this op-ed piece (linked to google cache, since SLTrib took it down).
about 5 years ago
I wasn’t arguing the constitutionality of vouchers. I was making the point that you can’t simply ignore the effect any legislation will have on public schools because of Utah’s constitution. I agree, the voucher system is completely lawful. However, because of the constitution there is a responsibility toward public schools that is not there for private. If a private school voucher program was found to severely impact the public system then we have a constitutional responsibility to not pass it. I’m not saying this voucher bill will severely impact the public school system, and I guess that is where the whole debate lies. Will it really adversely affect the system? That is why I asked the questions in another post about expected median income of voucher recipients, I think that is a big key to this. I almost wish that we could have a test program to see just how many people would use vouchers and the average income. It would make this a lot less about guessing numbers and could give some solid answers.
about 5 years ago
If a private school voucher program was found to severely impact the public system then we have a constitutional responsibility to not pass it.
Not necessarily… Utah’s constitution specifies that the legislature must fund the maintenance of the public schools, but a “severe impact” might or might not affect the government’s ability to maintain the school itself. This statement will no doubt be challenged in court, and it will be interesting to see how the judge interprets the “maintenance” clause for public schools, but simply allowing children to leave and take some of their own tax money with them in no way precludes the state from continuing to sufficiently maintain the school they left.
about 5 years ago
Hi. While the vote is over, I just saw this and think it’s important we still try and understand what was accurate. While I disagree with Connor’s premises about the motives of teachers and the morality of funding pooled for the common good, his arguments about competition represent an honest difference in opinion that can be debated.
However, the video was not meant to address any of those issues. It was made to refute the original cookie ad lie and the claims of a financial “windfall” for public schools from vouchers. Your recent posts on Myth 1 and 2 address the same general topic. The claims of financial gain for the school were whipped up to attract voters who don’t have the strong anti-UEA bent on the grounds that vouchers would actually help public schools. There are many who have no problem diverting funds from public schools because of the philosophical differences–why lie about it? We both agree that the debate should be based on honest facts.
My blog has long explanations of where the law routes the funding when a student takes a voucher under the entries titled Nuts and Bolts. To briefly address the two major misconceptions I see in your information, read lines 309-315 from the bill.
http://le.utah.gov/%7E2007/bills/hbillenr/hb0148.pdf
1st — The district loses all of the state funding for the child which is called the Minimum School Program (MSP) on line 310. This averages about $3800 this year. The state then sends the mitigation money which is the difference between MSP and the average voucher, estimated at $2250, for five years. The mitigation money is constant, regardless of the size of the voucher. The $2250 is lost to the district for those first 5 years, and then the full $3800 each year after. That is for every voucher.
2nd — Those same lines reveal the shell game in the funding. The general fund pays the check to the school, AND the school district pays the voucher amount back into the Uniform School Fund…where it just sits there, unspent until it rolls over into the next year’s allocations. It was originally allocated to a district for educational purposes, so the “total-per-pupil” spending appears larger, even though both the school and the district lost money.
Read the lines from the bill. We can disagree philosophically on what the role of government and school should be, but the pro-voucher funding numbers are simply untrue. The claims that vouchers save the public money are inherently dishonest.